Curse

Relyk · Jul 31, 2012, 02:01 AM // 02:01

They would be incorrect, as I could present the case of removing runes from the equation by having both builds use a superior FC rune. You're introducing bias to one side by having a player use a major rune on one weapon set and a minor on the other.

Drk Dervish · Jul 31, 2012, 05:24 PM // 17:24

For FC and weapon set only level point of view yes is bias. But I think to be a more flat level comparison it's better to look at the entire setup as one (ie. hp and energy) and the cost (apology if not making it clear in my OP)

40/40 Have high reduction rate but the cost of business are unable to make modification to the set without impacting the reduction rate.

Staff Natural can't be as high as 40/40. To achieve the 40/40 level it need to have 1 more base FC then 40/40 (Also base FC need to be at least 8 because less then that even with +1 FC wouldn't help. Most mes build have 8 base FC). The way to do that is from rune (major). However the price is -35hp and that the cost of business for a staff.

To off set this cost there are option like a +30hp mod and Survivor Insignia (Or higher base Armor but that calculation even much more messes and tricky not good to compare). But using a survivor insignia also have a cost. That is you potentially lost out 1 less energy (ie 40/40 don't need survivor to have the same hp so it can use one more Radiant insignia).

Other cost of business on staff is a staff lose 2 energy from 40/40. With 2 and 1 from insignia is 3 energy lost. To offset this cost staff can have the option to add a +5 energy mod.

Of course 40/40 can also have a major rune (which will surely out perform staff again), at a -35hp cost. If elect to offset this cost then it's a very pricey way. Using survivor insignia or rune of vitae or a combination of both the potentially lost of energy will be 7.

Rifky · Nov 12, 2012, 01:33 AM // 01:33

Sorry for the thread necromancy - I'm aware that after over three months the corpse must be nicely rotten. However, as someone who has something to do with mathematics, I felt a bit bugged by some of the calculations. It's actually all about the "36%" bit in the 40/40 set. You have a scepter and a focus that have influence on the final number. Let's assume the game mechanics calculates it first for the scepter. So, you have a 20% chance for halving (whether we talk about SR or CT) and 80% chance for failing. We proceed to the focus. Once again, chances are 20% and 80%. But putting everything together results in:
1) 20% * 20% = 4% for both successes (that's making the SR/CT four times shorter, cause the effect is put twice);
2) 80% * 80% = 64% for both failures;
3) 20% * 80% = 16% if scepter succeeds and focus fails;
4) 80% * 20% = 16% if scepter fails and focus succeeds.
Essentially, cases 3) and 4) are not distinguishable for us. Since the events are the same, the probability adds, resulting in 32%.
Now, if one considers literally the chance for halving, then it's 32%. But I think what people are interested in here is more making the SR/CT shorter than simply halving - and that situation also considers the possibility 1) and we get our famous 36%, since it's 4% + 32%.
I think that unfortunately it makes the entire issue much more complicated, since your final number for halving is not flat out 36%, but one of the elements of the sum is somehow stronger (4%) than the other (32%). Therefore, you cannot simply say that your HCT/HSR for 40/40 is 16% higher than for the staff. To make everything correct, I think we should consider something like the expected value of SR/CT. For a 20% staff it's:
20% * 1/2 CT + 80% * CT = 0.9 CT (or SR, respectively). It means that if the skill description says time of casting is t, then if you cast it multiple times, your average time should be 0.9t.
For 40/40:
32% * 1/2 CT + 4% * 1/4 CT + 64% * CT = 0.16 CT + 0.01 CT + 0.64 CT = 0.81 CT (or SR, respectively).
Now let's see how much smaller is one number than the other:
(Expected value for 40/40 divided by expected value for the staff) = 0.81/0.9 = 9/10.
Hence, you can see that your average SR/CT for 40/40 is essentially 10% shorter than that for a staff.

tl;dr - Nothing is the way it seems.

**Marty Silverblade** · Nov 12, 2012, 10:02 AM // 10:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rifky

1) 20% * 20% = 4% for both successes (that's making the SR/CT four times shorter, cause the effect is put twice);
2) 80% * 80% = 64% for both failures;
3) 20% * 80% = 16% if scepter succeeds and focus fails;
4) 80% * 20% = 16% if scepter fails and focus succeeds.
Essentially, cases 3) and 4) are not distinguishable for us. Since the events are the same, the probability adds, resulting in 32%.

Correct mathematically but not GW-wise. Recharge time doesn't stack past 50%, so 1, 3 and 4 are indistinguishable. Most of the thread is in regard to recharge so it's largely correct (have mostly skimmed though tbh). Casting time can drop to 25% of normal speed.

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Effec...ng#Effect_caps